Talk:Heroes/@comment-91.125.177.137-20170509161702

For those interested in playing to the limits and trying things at the extreme and most fun like making maxxed heroes...

 The end game varies abit depending if you are playing campaign or skirmish, most notable in skirmish the enemy hero AND towers scale according to your level, and if you have a weak caster unit with just a few thousand HP, you will die to the tower in just a few hits, and your spells/summoned armies are pointless against such towers... so skirmish is saved almost exclusively for meelee hero's... while campaign and skirmish can be fun in the end for all types of heroes. No matter what game you play, the enemy hero's level will be raised to simmilar to your hero's level at game start, so while units do not scale, E.G. at level 800 or so, every hero can just about kill a titan in one blow and elite creatures E.G. lvl 20(max creature level) minitaur kings(most power full ingame unit IMHO with 580HP 44 combat and high dmg and armour) can hit your hero all day and will not even hurt your hero, while he will mow these units down with just the cleave... the end game in campaign is very much hero versus hero, and bases, units, recources etc, are irrelivant. Arguably this is not the point of the game, and most people like playing challenging lvl 10 hero and playing game/build/resourse mechanics. but if you are like me, i am good at it and i have conquered the game doing just that, but i have finished the game and i now find that   boring... i want more... and want to play this cool game in more new ways... and i belive this is why the developers did not put a hero level cap so that people like me who want to.. can play on enjoying the game after we have finished it, exploring it in new ways.. Indeed i have the orignal warlords box and manual here from 2004... and it says it on the original box, so this is actually what the game developers wanted. they wanted us to mess around and have fun even when we are done with the game... if you are like me then this info may be usefull to you.

Trying to make the most ultimate hero in-game while trying to balance diminishing returns...

A quick guide from what I have learnt.

Because of diminishing returns and limits to game mechanics, it becomes futile putting points in certain things after a certain limit.

 First to hit a diminishing returns soft cap is Char :, as Charisma is pointless spending more points in it after say 80 points.

Your maxximum command radias even if you put 500 points is 19, and retuine slot = 8 max morale keeps on going up but because of diminishing returns.. this becomes MORE pointless the more you go, the merchant points you get decreases and you get diminishing returns, The most I have played in end game merchant is things that have a base cost of like 400 resources, costing like 25, which end game... is kind of a mute point, as the end game you dont care about spending 25 on something your enemy hero can destroy as he passes with 0 effort, at end game bases are pointless, and if you are going to be a merchant building tower defenses end game, any half decent.. meellee hero wil end your base before you can start, for sure, even with spells, building is too slow.

so because of diminishing returns... once you hit 19 command radius and 8 Retuine slots, stop puting points in charisma stat. and spend them on other things.

Dexterity, is always attractive... but lets say even as an e.g. assasin or thief after 150 / 200 points it really is pointless putting points in this stat as the points are better spent elsewhere as / diminishing returns.

once your speed is over say 18-20 your hero does not move any faster, and does not attack that much faster because of game mechanics... granted more is always better, but say after 150 / 200 points you are going to have probably 80 armour, 80 resistance, 60 speed and most in game content does not hurt you much after 30 armour... but then again.. this is end game mechanics of eng game mechanics of hero versus hero, and warriors at level 800 or so ignore 100-200 armour normally anyway, so while damage mitigation, and avoidance is always better than damage absorbance / buffers after say 150 / 200 points in Dexterity anymore points are much better spent in str, if you are meelee of str/int if you are a caster.

The third stat to reach a soft cap is int.

After say 250 int, it is almost impossible to run out of manna late game. bearing in mind my version as soon as you reach each 1K HP your manna is also increased to 1k, so I have a warrior with just over 10k/10000 health and he has a sum total of say 2 or 3 intelect points... yet he also has 10K manna.... And for spell casting say I have one caster that has 250/300 int, over 100 points in alchemy, playing empire researching spells and wearing all -spell casting% chance gear because he is a battlemage, and all good endgame items normally have -Spell cast chance staton them, he still casts create item with these negative items on him as late game their effects are neglagible, and he stil has like 100% chance to cast a level 15 create item spell every time, without even using arcane spells. so pretty much every item create spell he creates a glowing blue or green artifact item... I have never been able to cast spells even E.G. Pyromancy, 70 manna armageddon fast enough to run out of manna at 250 int... by then you should be generating 1 point of manna every 0.02 or 0.01 seconds, so If you can run out of manna, congrats, it is a challenge. and new creatures created seem to never get over say level 5-8 no matter how much int you have.. . and summonedunits I have seen go a high as level 11. but at late game that is so irreliant because diminishing returns and any unit is dead as soon as it gets near any end game hero.

 So like i have a summoner hero with 300 points in summoning, 500 int.. ( I was still learning.. about diminishing returns) he casts a few summoning circles and with arcane spells casts as many powerfull demon sumoning spells as he can,but I only seem to ever get 1 demon in my version and the highest level i have ever summoned him as is level 11, and those sort of summons will not even tickle a late game hero or tower, so it is kind of pointless, most casting or ecenomics trees after a level.

So for a caster hero... which is a poor choice for late game above 200 intellect.. is Plenty...

As while your spells do scale with their castlevel,  their manna costs do not, and their % to cast is not nerfed enough to warrant spending more points in this int stat...



<p style="font-weight:normal;">Finally..., the least nerfed stat is strength..

<p style="font-weight:normal;">and late game once you have hit your diminishing returns cap in other stats, all points should go here, even if you are a caster.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> Combat points are pretty much irrelivant after 50, so forget about this stat and do not spend skill points in combat increasing skills..

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> also life regen is also kind of irrelivant... as once you are past the 1 health regened every 0.01 seconds point it really does not get any faster, even if you spend points in %hp regen skill after, once you are regenning that fast it does not get any faster that that even is you have over 2 000% regen speed, yes i have spent points in regen speed and combat, dont they are irrelivent after you hit the cap's for those stats.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> What matters is going up 5 life and 1 damage every hero level...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">but even that suffers diminishing returns the later in the game you go. because that is a static climb even if you play a tauren and get crushing blow +2 damage with every level that is a linear static increase in stats... and why this all seems to fall over, as heros seem to increase in a linear type scale, e.g every level + so many life and dmg, and combat, resistance / armour etc...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The towers in skirmish maps.. do not increase in power on a linear static level... they increase in power exponentially, and we all know the story of the chineese emporor who gave his advisor who beat him in a game of chess 1 piece of rice doubled for every square on the chess board, eventually the emporor gave him his whole kingdom as there were not enough grains of rice in th whole of china... so no matter what hero you have and the powers/ skills you pick the later you get in the game the stronger the towers will get, it is the soft cap the devlopers put in the game to put a limit to how much you can play the game before it breaks. so by far that strongest unit, tinan, unit whatever in the game is the simple tower on a skirmish map, pity you have to get to say about level 800 to get owned every time by the tower,

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">There are many hero combinations.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> E.G the late game assain but the later and higher level you get the more pointless they become (sory, just game mechanics.. ) hehe that is what she said..

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> but seriously  This is the only thing that seems to matter, because of late game mechanics all heros with assinate skill e.g. an assaisin who has like 5000% chance oh getting an assasin hit, becuase the level mechanics nerfing your chance at late game like say by level 800, he will have the exact same chance of critting an assaintaion as a spellcaster hero using a that dagger with 1% assaination chance, as by like level 800 every hero with assinate skill is cut down to 1%, the minimum as it cannot be nerfed any more than that, so if you have 1% assasinate, great dont bother getting any more because diminishing returns will take it ALL away anyway back down to the 1%chance, which seams like not a lot... still does 1k damage and by that time you are attacking really fast, so it still is a good chance, so the nerf is really not Thaat bad, even if you are an spell caster (with a dagger giving you the same assinate hance as a late game assain) with 150 points in agi, you will crit exacty the same amount as an assasin with 500 points in agi and all his skill points in assasination, although you should live longer because all your points are not in agi and assination.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> but an assain class is a really bad class for late game because of the nerfed chance to do 1k Dmg and the gold it generates is negligble late game  Assaination does not work on buildings/towers, and towers is half of the end game

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I tried various combinations sofar, like the most obvious

<p style="font-weight:normal;">* a level 800 something tauren archmage, trying to make a battle caster warrior, spending the most in every single stat casting, meele, etc before diminishing returns and wearing only good tanky items not for casters.. and increasing all stats sequentially till diminishing returns e.g. 9 of each stat, 10 of each, 11 of each, 12 etc until their soft caps so the be all you can be, befroe diminishing returns/ game mechanics hits in.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">it works really well say from level 30 till level 150 it was insanely OP, with paladins helmet, (lifeward) and HP/battle items making him like 600HP, you could literally set him to rampant mode and win any skirmish/camp mission he can not die, with that HP, life ward and procs. if you want to contorol him it is very fun, spam acquire, and golems and summoning spells as you dominate the map. but > Level 150 this hero becomes vulnerable as at level 800he only has like 2.5k HP and as the camp/skirimish heros scale according to your own level, the other levels kill him quite easily

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So while this is actually the most fun hero i have ever played the game with normally e.gdoing the campaigns normally from level 1 until you have finished the stoy line, the fun ends and he dies easily to other heros and towers E.g. in1/2 hits before his paladins helmand life wardcan hit in so he only got to level 800 plus.

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">then i tried the only way i thought of to get to the latest end game possible versus towers and end game heros.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I tried a tauren warrior, spend hundreds in points in + dmg every hit so hi hit for 2k+ every hit, even if a non crit, i spent points in crit past the diminishing returns because why not. and spent the rest in str and constitution... i did not spen any points at all in charisma or int, I left them at 3 and 2, as he is a pure end game hero. and plus i am playing hero only as to get 900 or so levels at 4k xp each level glad that is static and not exponential increase too haha it is good if you kan kill a map and enemy heros in seconds /minutes rather than base building andspending 40 minutes plus each map for like 500 xp.. you will never reach level 900 like that.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">anyway in the end he had like 15k hp, and killed alot but he cannot get much past level 900 as the end game towers are too strong and kill him in one or two shots...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">so that is the end of the game, hope this helped you understand it abit, i had a lot of playing to learn all this, enjoy ^^